Wednesday, May 16, 2007

Again with the atheism

Continuing our theme of comprehensive analysis of a philosopher’s views from one brief article in the Saturday Age, this week we take a peek into the world of vastly popular French philosopher Michael Onfray.

It will probably not surprise you that I am going to disagree with a whole lot of what Mr Onfrey has to say. But I am pretty sure that if I ever met this dude, I would instantly take a very intense liking to the guy. Why? I suspect it’s this quote about why he wrote his latest book on atheism:

“When I went home, I checked my emails and saw that I had been sent some death threats. So I thought I may as well do something to really deserve them”

No matter how many things this guy says that annoy me, it’s just impossible not to love his attitude.

And now to a few things that impressed me less.

First this:
“Religions tell us we have to give up this life for another. They are telling us to up our desire, passions, pleasures- and that by doing so our existence in this world will make more sense, because the real sense of our life here below is the existence we will have once we are dead. What type of comfort is that? ‘Die while you are alive so you can be alive when you are dead?’”

When? When did religions say this? Was it any of the religions I am familiar with? Why wasn’t I told?

Frankly, if this dude had taken the time to reads my blog, I’m sure the 99 posts before this one could have suggested that I have no intention of ignoring the passions and pleasures of this life. I suppose I can accept that the most famous philosopher in France probably has a reasonable number of demands on his time and reading my blog is probably a fair way down on his list of priorities/ something he has never done and will never do.

However, if this man is planning to dismiss all religion, the least he could do is learn a bit about it first. One of my very favourite lines from the entire Bible is the bit where Jesus, talking about what he set out to achieve in life, announced that “I have come that you may have life, and life in all it’s fullness.”

I won’t try to speak for all religions, what with not even liking that term at all, but Christianity, at least, aims to make our lives on this planet more meaningful, not less.


And then there was this:
“When a soul collapses before the cold body of a loved one denial takes over and transforms this ending into a beginning.”

Followed by this:
“This is a swindle. We might have the impression that religions are doing us good, but it is by dint of a lie, a fiction, an extragavance.”

Says who? The fact that Michael Onfray has decided that death is a doorway to nothing at all whatsoever does not mean that he is right and everyone who believes otherwise is not only wrong but actually dishonest. Given that there’s really only one way to find out the answer to this one for sure, and as far as I can tell Michael Onfray is not and has never been dead, I have no idea why he feels such utter certainty on this one.


On the bright side, we have this:
“And to me, spirituality and religion are two different things. You can be an atheist and be interested in spirituality, which is my case.”

This is why I said I disagree with nearly everything that this guy says. On this point, Michael Onfray is absolutely right.


And finally, Michael Onfray was asked whether beautiful art and music and the like might provide a hint that maybe there is a God who is the source or inspiration for such wonderful things. Here’s his answer:

“And I think Bach would have existed without God; he would have been a musician anyway. He wouldn’t have composed oratorios and cantatas, but he would have done something else that would have been just as brilliant. Religion has acted as a structure, but if we change the structure, we will still have arts.”

This answer, if you read it a couple of times, boils down to “You don’t have to be a Christian to write good music”. Frankly, everyone knows that. The last 40 years of popular music would suggest that, if anything, the exact opposite is true, and being a Christian seems to make writing good music almost impossible.

My point here, more or less, is that Michael Onfray’s answer, while entirely correct, does not actually address the question. The world is too beautiful and magical a place to be something that just happened at random. To me, the beauty of this world is a signpost to something big and true and amazing.

It’s a question that deserves serious consideration, and a philosopher, of all people, should not be fudging the answer.

10 Comments:

Blogger Unknown said...

"The last 40 years of popular music would suggest that, if anything, the exact opposite is true, and being a Christian seems to make writing good music almost impossible." If you want to hold popular music up as a standard for quality music! My opinion is that the popular music of the last 40 years just isn't very good music. I believe Christians have failed in music for the very reason that they are trying to emulate popular music.

12:39 AM  
Blogger gigglewick said...

Respectfully as always, INCraig, I disagree with some of what you're saying here (although notably, I also disagree with some of Onfray's points).

I do agree with Onfray that Bach would have existed without God. This is mostly because, as you know, I'm not a big believer in God.

I don't believe that Bach would have existed without religion.

And here is the central point of difficulty for many non-believers - a deep desire (as mine) to enjoy the products of religiously-funded and religiously-themed arts teamed with a need to argue a lack of belief in God.

This in turn begs the question whether it is possible to be an atheist and to still appreciate, for example, Handel's 'Messiah' or Michelangelo's 'Doni Tondo'. I say it is, but I am a pain in the arse that way.

I am also happy to accept that it is possible that Onfray's position re death being a "doorway to nothing" is based on a faith as deep as yours and a conviction as deep as yours regarding your own spiritual path.

I don't believe that you are dishonest in your beliefs, but neither do I believe that he is in his.

The thing that pisses me off about systems of faith generally (and here I include atheism) is the need to define things in opposition to other things.

I believe it is possible to say

"My faith in god is true and just"

without adding

"Not like that other guy".

Similarly, it should be enough to state

"I believe that death is the end of the physical and spiritual body"

without continuing

"unlike the Buddhists who are frankly full of it".

Of course, I've never wanted to build a following around my beliefs, and given this tirade it's probably just as well.

INCraig, I really admire the way that you continue to deconstruct the viewpoints you come across in light of your faith and consider your own response to them. I guess although we don't share a passion for religion as such, we certainly are united by curiosity.

Thanks again - I do enjoy reading your posts about religion.

2:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well!

I read your post this morning, thought about it all day, came along to add my thought and gigglewick came and took them out of my brain, made them read good, and posted them.

So: What she said!

The gist of my thoughts is that I think Christianity (and really most religions) are great as long as you don't get too caught up in the 'believing in God' side of it.

Also: I don't really like Bach, and I don't believe in God. But I don't like Satanic Warmaster either. Dallas Crane are a good band though. Just saying!

7:59 PM  
Blogger I'm not Craig said...

Keith

Well hello and welcome and if you don't mind me asking how in the world did you find yourself reading this blog? Do I have a previously unsuspected cult following in Kentucky?

Probably not.

First of all, may I say that I just love that you have a blog called The Gospel According to Keith, and as far as I can tell there is not a trace of irony to be found.

As for the music stuff, I absolutely love most of the popular music of the past 40 years, with the exception of that ‘Like a Bird’ song and anything recorded by Gwen Stefani after she left 'No Doubt'.* All sorts of musicians, whether they are Christians or not, have produced truly amazing music and they continue to do so.

I do agree with you that Christian music is at its worst when it’s busy trying to copy whatever the latest new popular thing is, and at its best when it’s a band like the Mercy Bell who just got on with doing their own unique thing.

Finally, let me say that I was once lucky enough to spend a day in your very fine State and I am in awe of your most excellent caves of Frozen Niagara.


*And everything Creed ever did, obvs


Gigglewick aka the saviour of all that is purposeful in life*

I love blogging for many reasons. One of them is that I get to engage in a dialogue on topics that interest me with fabulous people who I would never otherwise have met.

It’s good to see that we both disagree with Onfray about Bach, but for opposite reasons. I agree with him that Bach could exist without religion and he still would have written good music, but I don’t agree that Bach could exist without God, on the simple basis that nothing can.

I have to agree that atheists can appreciate religious art, in much the same way that a Christian like me can still be endless fond of, say, Queen’s “Fat Bottomed Girls”.


Thanks for your comment, it was incisive and thought provoking as always. I love that, although we have never met and for that matter we don’t actually know each other’s real names, we are, as you very rightly point out, united by curiosity.



*Well, now you’ve been called that this week

Grover

Firstly congratulations on having any time to blog with a tiny child in your house.

Secondly the thing about Christianity is that if you skip the believing in God bit the rest of it doesn’t make any sense and it all falls to small inexplicable pieces. Over many years, I’ve decided that the really important part is to believe in God but not be an insufferable sanctimonious jerk about it.

I’m working on it.

Also, I am not familiar with the work of Satanic Warmaster but I did once see a Christian death metal band called Mortification, which still counts as one of the darndest nights of my entire life.

9:29 PM  
Blogger Melba said...

hi INC. like giggles and groverjones, i want to say what they said. i haven't even gotten my hands on the god delusion yet, but i don't need to read that to know what i think and be able to say what i want to say.

couple of things. i didn't read the article, so can't comment directly on what onfray said.

but you said: Given that there’s really only one way to find out the answer to this one for sure, and as far as I can tell Michael Onfray is not and has never been dead, I have no idea why he feels such utter certainty on this one.

can i ask you a question? are you certain of life after death as described in the bible and believed by people who believe in heaven and all that stuff? if you say yes, then just flip it around and see the faith in his words, the certainty. and it's a faith and certainty that has arisen out of the vacuum of hard, scientific evidence, upon which not only the christian faith, but all other monotheistic faiths are built.

think about it.

the second thing was:
The world is too beautiful and magical a place to be something that just happened at random. To me, the beauty of this world is a signpost to something big and true and amazing.

to me this is the absolute reason why the beautiful things we enjoy in life have occurred naturally without creation from a god. this is also why they are so beautiful, because it's like an accident. how wondrous, how amazing. it this wonder and amazement that from the earliest times made humans look for reasons to explain it. first the moon and the sun gods, then animal gods, and so on. until it became a very sophisticated explanation. which is the bible, the torah and the koran. actually they are three parts of the one story according to some. which is interesting. same god, ongoing story.

hope none of this offends, i am thrilled to have this conversation happening in a safe, friendly environment. sorry too for going on too much.

am going away over weekend so look forward to hearing your response.

love, peace and light

mg xx

12:23 PM  
Blogger gigglewick said...

INCraig,

I am somewhat bemused that the least-Christian music you could think of was 'fat-bottomed girls'. I am so telling Mr Fix that tonight.

Also, your response made me think of 'The Mark of Cain', something I havent' done since the 90's. Well done.

3:03 PM  
Blogger I'm not Craig said...

MG
I hope you had a fabulous weekend away and you're feeling all peaceful and refreshed ahead of the wedding.

Thanks, as ever, for the comment, and for the excellent questions you raise. I have been working on adddressing those issues over the weekend, in between cookjing brunch for the neighbours and hanging out at indoor play centres, but it's not quite done yet.

Since it's already pretty long, I'll probably do it as a whole new post, rather than including it in this comment stream.

I'm not sure when I'll get it finished exactly. This week, I hope.


Giggles

You're right, that's probably not even close to the least-Christian song ever, but I had to pick something I like and I'm just not that much of a fan of AC/DC's Hells Bells, Judas Priest played backwards or Berlioz's "Night on Bare Mountain".

So, what did Mr Fix saywhenyou told him?

I should add that Honey Bear read yoru comment without having read the post or any of the comments before it, and her confusion was really quit the sight to behold. It took a while to explain how we got there.

7:04 AM  
Blogger Snoskred said...

Hey, I love indoor play centres. ;) I have more fun there than my nephews do. ;)

I'm just dropping by to let you know that I read your blog with google reader whenever you update, and that I enjoy your blog. I'm re-doing my links on my blog, and I have linked to you in the sidebar.

So that's my task for the day.. it's going to take ages.. :)

10:34 PM  
Blogger I'm not Craig said...

Snoskred

Hi, always nice to see you and I must stop by and check out your excitingly renovated blog soon.

7:14 AM  
Blogger Cinema Minima said...

Sorry to drag you back to this post but I think these questions are ones that don't have answers, or at least the answers will never be found.

4:48 PM  

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